Maybe it'a because the Brits (as in the civil population) never really got to experience the horrors of war for the last 200 years, at least. I live in an Eastern European country, and each and every village around these parts of the world has a stone monument in the center-village area commemorating the names of those that died in WW1. Lots more died in WW2, but because that happened as we were fighting the Soviet Union no monuments were erected while we were under communist rule following WW2.
Talking about communist rule that was the result of WW2, just today I learned from my father that one of the hardest things for my parents raising me as a kid under communist rule was the central heating and electrical power would go out at the same time in the middle of winter. Now, imagine raising a 3-old kid while there are -10 or -15 degrees Celsius outside and for you with no way to warm your apartment (as an aside, I think that the fact that Cuba is a tropical country was one of the main factors of Castro staying in power for that long, when you don't have to fear that your kids will die of cold then you become a lot more acceptant).
In comparison, the EU, with all its quirks, is like heaven on Earth. The Leavers deserve whatever is that will come to them, even if they didn't know what they were voting for.
He has something of a point; the Blitz was bad, and rationing and evacuation was bad, but compared to occupation? Compared to the sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad?
The UK has never experienced occupying armies marching in and arbitrarily executing the public (unless you count, er, either of the "Bloody Sunday" shootings)
The Blitz was huge. It was terrible. It was also across a channel. He's talking about ground-level, street-to-street fighting, where you see men clomp into the town in which you live and remake your society, and that's very arguably a difference of kind. Britain has not seen fighting on its soil that was not internecine in the better part of a thousand years (honorable mention to the French who bailed on Fishguard Bay, though). The countries he's talking about were stomped on in living memory.
He didn't say that what happened to other people and not him long before he was even born was worse than what happened during the Blitz, he said British people "never really got to experience the horrors" of WWII, which is simply a denial of fact, offensive and the words of someone who doesn't know even basic history.
Not everywhere in Eastern Europe was Stalingrad or Warsaw, particularly in fascist, anti-Semitic states like Romania, which eagerly invaded the USSR alongside its Nazi ally, and was second only to Nazi Germany in murdering Jews.
> He didn't say that what happened to other people and not him long before he was even born was worse than what happened during the Blitz, he said British people "never really got to experience the horrors" of WWII, which is simply a denial of fact, offensive and the words of someone who doesn't know even basic history.
I know my basic history, thank you very much. I moved office recently and in my way to work I'm passing on a street which used to have a Jewish cemetery until 1942 (or 1943). At that point all the tombstones were taken way, the buried taken who knows where and some garden was built in that place. On my way to my previous office I used to pass on the street where 2 Jewish synagogues had been burned in 1941, by the members of a right wing party which was all powerful back then.
> "never really got to experience the horrors" of WWII, which is simply a denial of fact, offensive and the words of someone who doesn't know even basic history.
Have the British experienced the horrors of communism, which was brought to us directly by WW2? No, they have not.
> Not everywhere in Eastern Europe was Stalingrad or Warsaw, particularly in fascist, anti-Semitic states like Romania, which eagerly invaded the USSR alongside its Nazi ally, and was second only to Nazi Germany in murdering Jews.
We invaded USSR because of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, which saw the Soviets take part of our country (I'll let you search on wikipedia which part exactly). I, for myself, do not think that was the best decision for us to take, but saying that we invaded USSR like we were the Golden Horde searching for things to loot then you're utterly mistaken.
> offensive and the words of someone who doesn't know even basic history.
I don't care if people get so easily offended by things that are very close to the truth (as in we can't never know the historical truth 100%). To put it more bluntly, I was always asking myself as a kid, in my head: "Has my grand-mother been raped by the Russians as they entered our country?". Answer: she was probably not, or, if she was, it doesn't matter, now, as she's dead, but that question was put by a lot of kids and grand-kids after WW2 all the way from Berlin to the gates of Moscow (you can replace "Russian soldiers" with "German soldiers" as you go East). What I'm trying to say is that things on the Continent have been fucking bleak, and what happened in Britain, as a comparison, is kids' play. I don't care if you find that offensive or not.
What I'm trying to say is that things on the Continent have been fucking bleak, and what happened in Britain, as a comparison, is kids' play
Putting aside your ridiculous belief that Brits did not suffer in WW2, what I don't get about your position is that the EU is run by powerful, entirely unaccountable leaders who very frequently and publicly take a dump on the entire concept of democracy and voting. The EU's law making is done in secret, which is similar only to North Korea in opacity.
And the EU is busy telling eastern European countries they're going to be punished financially and legally for not adopting "european values" (as these countries are without a doubt in Europe geographically, what that means of course is "german values").
Of all the people who should be attuned to the dangers of powerful leaders who dislike referendums, citizens of ex-Soviet countries should be the MOST aware. Yet you are running headlong into another giant undemocratic bloc.
This thread has gotten quite uncivil. It takes a lot of extra care and effort on heated topics to resist this, but nevertheless it isn't the kind of discussion we're after and it violates the guidelines. Please take that extra care.
I don't believe the other poster was decent or civil in the way he posted, but purely with regard to what I wrote, I agree, I made mistakes in the way I replied and apologize.
Just read a couple of days ago about a Romanian soldier who saw how his German comrades were taking the unborn babies out of their Russian pregnant mothers, using bayonettes. I'm now having a beer with one of my best friends, Romanian, never set foot in Russia, who has cousins somewhere in Russia because one of his grand-fathers was a war prisoner there. After he was set free he met a Russian woman with whom he had a kid (and on case you wonder why would a Russian woman have kids with a Romanian prisoner, thst was because there were no Russian men left).
Earlier in the day, when I first left my comment, I was writing from my parents' town, on the Danube. There were reports of Bulgarian soldiers raping and killing civilians after they defeated us and occupied the town in WW1, I'ce seen those photos in a book published just after the war ended. They were all civilians
As far as I know no British civilian was killed with bayonettes nor raped. Yeah, we overhere on the Continent (especially here in the East) got it a lot worst than the British. Yes, I was serious, and some of you people need to learn more about history, not the kind of stuff you get to watch on TV.
> Yeah, we overhere on the Continent (especially here in the East) got it a lot worst than the British.
Yeah, after all your parents had to endure the horror of no central heating occasionally, an unimaginable atrocity beyond comprehension that nobody - certainly that no pampered "Brit" living in their ivory tower - has ever had to endure.
> some of you people need to learn more about history
Says the person who thinks Castro remained Cuban leader because the country is sunny.
> Yeah, after all your parents had to endure the horror of no central heating occasionally, an unimaginable atrocity beyond comprehension that nobody - certainly that no pampered "Brit" living in their ivory towers - has ever had to endure.
That was caused by communism, and communism was brought to our country by us being on the wrong side of the Wall after WW2. And if you think that raising a kid with no fucking heat to speak of in the middle of an Eastern European winter (we're not talking about the foggy winters you got over there in the British Isles) then you really need to also learn about geography.
> Says the person who thinks Castro remained Cuban leader because the country is sunny.
There was a discussion in a thread about Venezuela recently where some HN-er was discovering the incredible truth about how the end of civilization, i.e. mass revolts, is about 6 missing meals away (too lazy to search for the link, the thread happened in the last 2 weeks or so). During the December 1989 revolt against communism people on the street were shouting for having electrical power and heating in their homes, and if possible more food in the stores. But you can't possibly know that, the British
haven't revolted or protested for anything meaningful since the Levellers.
I know that the audience in here tends to be pretty pampered, generally speaking, but I was also thinking that a lot of HN-ers would compensate that by reading more about what's happening and and what happened in the world.
The whole discussion started on the premises that people on the Continent have had it way worse in recent times compared to the British (I'd call WW2 and everything that happened after it as "recent times", as we've got our grand-parents and parents as living proofs of said times), that's why an organization like the European Union that has managed to make us not fight between ourselves anymore (among other things) is a great fucking accomplishment. I was implying that the Brits not really knowing and not directly experiencing the horrors of recent history they feel sort of pampered, not fully realizing what they're throwing away.
> why not say what's the hardest thing you've ever had to endure in your life
If it matters I remember my mother sending me the the store to purchase rationed bread and sugar, as 8-year old kid or so. I was finding that normal. Food was not plentiful, to use an euphemism. What I don't remember is how in one those winters that you call "just weather" I was about to die as a kid because of the cold in my parents' house.
Take a drive around the UK, keep your eyes peeled, and you will find that every settlement of any size has a corresponding stone monument. It's said that WW1 destroyed an entire generation of British men. For the sake of the memory of the fallen please let's not get into a pissing contest over suffering.
Talking about communist rule that was the result of WW2, just today I learned from my father that one of the hardest things for my parents raising me as a kid under communist rule was the central heating and electrical power would go out at the same time in the middle of winter. Now, imagine raising a 3-old kid while there are -10 or -15 degrees Celsius outside and for you with no way to warm your apartment (as an aside, I think that the fact that Cuba is a tropical country was one of the main factors of Castro staying in power for that long, when you don't have to fear that your kids will die of cold then you become a lot more acceptant).
In comparison, the EU, with all its quirks, is like heaven on Earth. The Leavers deserve whatever is that will come to them, even if they didn't know what they were voting for.